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More Guerillas - APE in context part 4

  • May. 13th, 2007 at 3:08 PM
Von in toque
This last convention essay is now archived up on my website just over here. It's actually been merged with part 3 to create a nice and concise two part piece. The comments, though, are still below if you'd like to read them.

Von
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( 16 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]norda wrote:
May. 13th, 2007 08:43 pm (UTC)
I've bookmarked this to digest and comment later.

Lots of very, very valid points.
[info]vonandmoggy wrote:
May. 14th, 2007 08:11 pm (UTC)
I'd love to hear what you have to think when you get a chance. I'm damn curious! :)

Von
[info]librarygorilla wrote:
May. 13th, 2007 11:49 pm (UTC)
"There is no data coming back (none, zip, nadda) that would indicate to me that this is a realistic way to develop buzz for a new book by an unknown creator."

I don't know.

I mean I really don't know about APE, since I've never been there, but I've been to a few SPX's now and there are usually a few things that most people haven't heard of that kind of busts out during the con. The blogosphere and the internet being what it is, this has translated to lots of people talking.

I can't say exactly what it takes to kick a book over, though, and I get the impression that SPX might be a better selling con than most.

It's worth mentioning that people do know who you are. I was having a drink with someone a few months ago and mentioned you guys (we were talking about SPX)and they wanted to know when the book was coming out.

So while I don't think your plan has always been as effective as you'd like, it's not been completely ineffective, either. I do like these con post mortems, and at the very least you're helping to hone MY marketing plan.
[info]vonandmoggy wrote:
May. 14th, 2007 01:07 am (UTC)
You raise a good point. I call it "Moggy's Point" because it's been part of her argument, too. Basically, have we developed something unmeasurable? Will people come out when they hear the book is out? I dearly hope so, of course. But it's impossible to say what will happen 'til the book is out. I can only leverage it as best I can and, since we're on a reasonably limited budget, try to evaluate each and every promotion we do. So if "stuff" is happening behind the scenes, I really don't know about it. That's another argument for a random email out of the blue, I suppose.

This is really the crux, ain't it? Can I advise someone to spend the money we have based on what I know so far? No, I can't. Ask me again when the book is out, though. 'Cuz I might have a different answer then.

Thanks for letting me know about the person you were sharing a drink with, though. It's the kind of thing that is very cool to hear.

Von
[info]pirate_kitchen wrote:
May. 13th, 2007 11:54 pm (UTC)
With regards to the figure of 93% of all ISBN selling less than 1000 copies, is that of all ISBN’s in existence or just of books actually ordered in 2004? If the former, I would think that number of books out of print would heavily skew that number. The devil is in the details.

How about the riddle of steel? The flesh is week! It’s all about marketing and mind taking.

[info]vonandmoggy wrote:
May. 14th, 2007 01:00 am (UTC)
Only books sold in 2004 by retailers reporting to Neilsen Bookscan. Don't factor out of print books into it at all. It's only for the 2004 calendar year.

Von
[info]komejo wrote:
May. 14th, 2007 12:04 am (UTC)
I know you're trying to be as empirical as possible about the event, but I was wondering how APE fares when you factor in the coverage that your writeups have received?

Also, if you haven't been told by 100 people yet, you have an obvious flair for comic journalism. You ought to strongly consider using that skill on a regular basis to enhance your reputation in the industry. Comics is as much about who you are (and who you know) as it is about the quality of your work.
[info]vonandmoggy wrote:
May. 14th, 2007 01:17 am (UTC)
"I know you're trying to be as empirical as possible about the event, but I was wondering how APE fares when you factor in the coverage that your writeups have received?"

Now THIS fascinates me. It really, really does. I can't believe some of what's happened since I started writing these blogs on APE. Now, to be fair I did try and spread the word when I saw the initial post was getting some interesting replies going. I know that I emailed Tom at The Comics Reporter basically looking for what he thought. He pleasantly surprised me by mentioning it on his site itself. And things kinda snowballed from there and the stories were picked up left, right and centre. As I've told a number of people, there's a major bit of irony here. I'm getting a lot of the measurable data I was looking for from the blog posts. Exactly what I had hoped to see (actually far surpassing it) from APE and the other previous cons. When I evaluate APE in this light, it's a different thing altogether. BUT...in a sense this would be moving the goal posts. The original point was the lack of data from the event itself. I'm not sure that part has changed. I take your point, though.

On the Comics Journalism front: man, you made me smile and that was a very nice thing of you to say. I have thought about it but it's not something I've pursued at all. I've been a little leery about posting this kind of stuff before, though, since I wasn't sure there was really an audience for it. I'm starting to change my mind on that front. :)

Von

[info]kaolinfire wrote:
May. 14th, 2007 07:22 am (UTC)
Always good to read. The most publicity I've gotten recently is from one person harassing the magazine, threatening us. After that, some paid advertising on schlockmercenary.com. All of which has meant one more sale this week. ;) We'll be doing well when we've sold 1000 copies. Well, not really. But better than we are. ;)
[info]davemerrill wrote:
May. 14th, 2007 02:13 pm (UTC)
I think the key phrase is: I am talking about earning more through one’s art then you’d get flipping burgers at MacDonalds.

There aren't a lot of people doing that at APE or at SPX or at any comic book show you care to visit, except the dealers. I think most of the people with Tokyopop contracts are making LESS than they'd make at McDonalds. There simply isn't that much money in comics. You throw in ancillary merchandise- buttons, t-shirts, what have you, some of those creators are probably making out OK, but strictly comics? No.

I was part of a group that published a manga-style anthology graphic novel, JUKU, in 2004. We got a good deal on the printing and did a run of 1000. We sold them from tables at anime cons for $5 each; five bucks for 244 pages of comics, that's cheap. We sold it through Amazon and advertised in the Comics Journal and had a website advertising the book. At this point five years later I think our total sales were around 500. The partnership dissolved and the remaining copies got split five ways, and now that Shain and I live in Canada we put Mr. Kitty stickers on them and hand them out free as promotional items.

I think we could have sold a few more with some more aggressive advertising and marketing, but fifty percent sales is actually not too bad.

What did we learn?
-Original comics are a tough sell. People want comics about familiar characters by known artists.

-Price points matter. Five dollars sealed the deal with many a customer - when they found out it was $5 the wallet came out like lightning.

-If you're going to do the same show two years in a row you'd better have something new.

I still think there were many places we could have advertised and sold JUKU outside the comic convention circuit. The comics world is so small, so incestuous, and so broke that I would not use it as a barometer of success, and I would only put a portion of my energy working that market.
[info]vonandmoggy wrote:
May. 14th, 2007 03:24 pm (UTC)
It isn't just original comics, either. Original anything is a tough sell. That's exactly why I posted the Book Standard's article and excerpted the key numbers. Books, prose or graphic novel, aren't a get rich quick kinda thing. It's a very tough slog.

I would like to know more about the Tokyopop OEL contracts before commenting on that front, however. I've heard a fair amount anecdotally, but aside from this interview with Jeremy Ross I don't know exactly what's in the contract.

"If you're going to do the same show two years in a row you'd better have something new."

I'm actually not sure I agree with this. As I pointed out in an earlier post, the lack of people remembering us was pretty astounding. On top of it, the numbers I'm reporting for APE '07 jive with the other three cons (SPX '05 and '06 plus APE '06) so it's not like I feel we "blew our load" once and that was that. From a sales point of view, though, I dunno. It would be interesting to know if there's any consensus on this point. Does selling the same material at the same con on an annual basis soften sales long-term at said con? If so, it would imply that either the audience for said books is small and/or that the overall attendance at said con is stagnant (the same people are coming).

And I agree completely about your point with the "comics world" at the end. Con appearances have been only one of the ways I've been doing pre-publicity for my bookie and I'd be lying if I said it wasn't where most of dollars went (caveat: vacations, yadda, yadda, yadda). That said, much of what I did for cons has been used in other areas, too. Bookmarks, ashcans and galleys have been making their way to comic shops and bookstores; these weren't manufactured exclusively for cons by any stretch of the imagination. They've been put to good use.

Von

[info]davemerrill wrote:
May. 14th, 2007 09:38 pm (UTC)
Some of the anecdotal stuff I've heard about the Tokyopop contracts indicate it works out to minimum wage, more or less. I think I'll keep my day job.

Our second time at some shows, we'd hear "Yeah, I have this already, when is your next book coming out?" If there's a significant increase in attendance or a lot of turnover, you might see the sales figures stay the same from year to year, but if it's the same people two years running they've already seen your book and have already decided to buy it or not.

The anime shows we did were usually increasing their memberships by 10-25% every year, so there were always new faces; but anime con attendees aren't really that interested in comics by Americans that they've never heard of.

One thing that did seem to spark sales was panels. If we did panels on drawing comics, self publishing, or just about any other topic, people would come to us immediately thereafter with cash in hand to buy our comics.

We did FLUKE three or four times when we were down in Georgia and we had mixed success there; I think our book was too professional-looking to succeed at a small press show, actually.
I've never been to APE or SPX so I have no way of knowing how successful we'd be pushing the book there.

On the whole I think if we'd worked a little harder getting tables at small press shows, book fairs, etc., and actually gotten distribution, we could have moved 90% of the stock. But as with all collaborations some members work harder than others. And to be honest, there's only so much sitting around anime con artist alleys I can take. As it stands, we've got about 80 books in the closet and at least half of those will go out the door one way or another in two weeks at Anime North.
[info]karaokefanboy wrote:
May. 16th, 2007 06:25 am (UTC)
You certainly do have a knack for journalism, but in the vein intended by quality bloggers: purely experiential, seasoned by the analytical. I think any site you're running to promote "The Road to God Knows" (and I apologize for not knowing about one off the top of my head) should include a blog similar to these entries explaining your artisitic process and experiences.

I recently read an article (I don't know where) that condemned artists for "resorting" to blogging to "get their name out there," because, inevitably, the blogging efforts overtake the original artistic tendencies. I know that's what happened with my blog, acomicaday.blogspot.com. (Got the plug in -- YES!) Then again, since your point about the difficulty of launching originality successfully is a valid one, GO with the blogging. They seem to be working out just fine for ya!

Have you thought about contacting Hope Larson or any of the other guests of honor to solicit their feedback? I didn't even realize they WERE the GoH until much later. While the Bob the Angry Flower and K Chronicles booths seemed like the natural place for Larson and co., Bob the Angry Flower has been doing these cons for 15 years and obviously has some precident over things. Goes to show what happens when you plant a seed . . .

So, I presume you WON'T be exhibiting again at APE? Could you have accomplished the same if you had just worked the floor for a solid day as a regular old attendee? I wonder how THAT would work, sans actual sales (unless one goes through the trouble of getting a permit just to barker the floor), taking that proactive exhibitor approach while simply perusing, targeting other exhibitors and the folks you find yourself in natural converation with. Certainly would be bold.

Bottom line, your evaluations have been dynamite and I'm sharing them with everyone I know that would dig 'em. Thanks for the insight, and for putting into words a lot of the thoughts we've been trying to wrap our heads around for a long time.
[info]vonandmoggy wrote:
May. 16th, 2007 03:03 pm (UTC)
Heya!

"Resorting" to blogging is a poor way of terming it. Mainly because I disagree about the inevitable part of the article's argument. To me, the problem is always one of exposure - how to tell people you're "out there" and get them aware of you. A poorly written blog would do an artist no favours. Content matters - content always matters with these kinds of things. So having something to say, which I hope I've accomplished with these four APE posts, is really critical. An artist that blogs "just because" won't get very far.

I certainly don't think you'd need a permit or some such to wander around handing out samples. Richard actually touched on why this might not be a great idea but I suspect it depends a lot. I wouldn't go to APE, though, just to wander around the floor. It's probably most effective for regional shows where your travel and accommodation costs are low. For us and APE, that wouldn't be the case. If I was local to the Bay area, though, why the hell not? The catch, I think, is to not do it in a crass way. Casual and yet professional. We did manage to get my stuff into the hands of some publishers but even that is a Catch 22. They're really exhibiting to sell their own work and not take submissions from unknowns. For me, coming all the way down from Canada, it was worth a shot. I'm not so sure I feel the same way if I was closer to them, though.

Thanks for the kind words, too. It's been fun and educational to write about 'em and I love the overall quality of the discussion. Cool beans, in other words! :)

I'm gonna drop you an email about a few other things in the next day or so!

Von
[info]karaokefanboy wrote:
May. 16th, 2007 03:52 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I'm pretty impressed that no one has jumped down your throat over the more critical points. (To quote Matthew Broderick in "Cable Guy," "You have nice friends." I hear you re: the blogging, too, but I guess my vantage point is, from an artist-with-a-day-job perspective, I only have so many free hours to dedicate to extracurricular activities, and while many folks seek exposure via blogging (albeit insightful and entertaining), some (myself among them) usually have very little to expose! Er, you know what I mean . . . original comics material! Fortunately, your APE posts have been supplemental to an experience centered around an original graphic novel, and while many artists post scripts or sketches during their pre-production process, it's been nice to get that POST-production POV, as well. I'll be checking in with your LJ as long as you're posting, and drop me a line anytime!
[info]vonandmoggy wrote:
May. 16th, 2007 04:37 pm (UTC)
There's been a small amount of "jumping," but it's happened in email. A few snarks here and there but nothing huge...and nothing I can't deal with.

I actually wish more artists would post more on these kind of things. Perhaps they do and I just don't know about it. Or perhaps people are just more private then I am. :)

Just sent you an email, by the by.

Von
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